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Kyle Racki on The Long Road to “Overnight Success”

Kyle Racki on The Long Road to “Overnight Success”

 

Today, I’m talking with Kyle Racki, Co-Founder and CEO of Proposify, a SaaS startup based in Halifax, Nova Scotia that helps digital agencies and freelancers create beautiful proposals in the browser, streamline their sales and get faster client sign-off.

When Kyle and his partner started with Proposify, growth was slow which is something I’m sure most founders can relate to. However, in 2015 the hit the proverbial hockey stick growth and their MRR shot from $5k to $75k, a 15 times improvement. And last year, they doubled.

In this interview, Kyle shares the long grind that lead to their so-called overnight success, how they have sustained such a massive rate of growth, and actionable advice to help you apply some of those same strategies in your startup

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Where to learn more:

To hear more about what Kyle and the Proposify team are up to, head over to their blog where they put out great "behind-the-scenes" content like their recent post, A Deep Dive Into Our New User Onboarding Process.

Transcript:

Andy Baldacci:
Kyle, thanks so much for coming on the show today.

Kyle Racki:
Thanks for having me, Andy.

Andy Baldacci:
At Proposify, you went from 5K MRR to 75K MRR in 12 months, back in 2015. How in the world did you do that?

Kyle Racki:
That's a loaded question. Yes, I guess we would have been around 5K, I think, at the beginning of 2015. We don't have all the numbers in front of me. We're at about 150K MRR now. We basically, doubled in 2016. It wasn't always that way. We went for a grueling 17 or 18 months, from when we originally launched our MVP in 2013. It took us about 17 to 18 months, to just even get beyond the $1000 MRR mark. We went a long period of doing almost nothing in revenue.

Andy Baldacci:
What kept you going during that? It's funny. It's like, when you read all of the crazy growth stories. When I type in Proposify and Kyle Racki, and you see this crazy growth story. It's like "Oh, that must have been nice. He just skyrocketed up there." It wasn't that easy. What kept you going during that initial grind?

Kyle Racki:
Yeah. I always like [inaudible 00:01:17] that, when you hear about bands. I think, No Doubt was like this. They had worked in little shitty bars. Am I allowed to swear on your podcast?

Andy Baldacci:
Go for it.

Kyle Racki:
Okay. I'll try to keep it clean, but sometimes it comes out. They worked in these little bars for 10 years. Then they have a breakout album and they're a big success. Everybody goes "Oh, wow. They're an overnight success." You're like "No, it was a decade of grinding it and all that kind of stuff."

It's the same story in a way. Proposify was an idea I had on paper [inaudible 00:01:50], since 2007. As early as that. Almost 10 years now. Then over the course of time, I ran an agency that did web design with my business partner, Kevin. We still wanted to build a SaaS company and build a SaaS product, which I think, every agency does.

Andy Baldacci:
I was going to say, it's like the common agency dream is, "Let's stop selling our time and let's make a product."

Kyle Racki:
Yeah. Every agency wants to do that because obviously, agency business is tough and selling time is tough. Long sales cycles, everyone dreams of that recurring revenue. We had the same dream as, pretty much, everybody else. It was a long process, to be able to get some funding. Be able to sell off our agency. Be able to hire the right talent to build it. Just really have the kind of dedication to focus on seeing it through.

Without making the story too long-winded, the process from when we launched our MVP of Proposify, to when we sold our agency, was about almost a year. It was maybe, one of the hardest times of my life. The selling in the agency was really difficult. Just balancing money. Now, there's a time where I didn't have enough money to get across the bridge over to Halifax, where I work. We were tight, personally, financially. The business side, we were in debt. It was really, really tough.

I think that the only thing that really got us through was, each other because Kevin and I encouraged each other to keep going. We got good product validation. That kept us going as well, because everybody was saying they didn't have the problem or they didn't need help writing proposals or anything like that. We might have said "Oh, okay. Maybe we're in the wrong … Maybe we're going after the wrong market. The problem isn't really that bad."

We had a lot of validation that, the problem was bad. We just weren't solving it properly.

Andy Baldacci:
I see. You knew something was there. It was just a matter of how to uncover it. How to actually solve it in a way that really addresses the underlying issue.

Kyle Racki:
Exactly. I think in order to solve the problem properly, we really just needed time. We needed our developer, who's a very skilled developer, between me who was doing the design and customer discovery. Just really trying to build and plan the right features. Him actually coding it, Jonathan.

It was really just, we needed time to get the product right. We all want to hit product market fit, out of the gate. Sometimes it's just like, what you're building is really hard. It takes time to get it right. We really … I think our key to success was, just not stopping. Not giving up. I think a lot of people might have given up after 17 months of flat zero growth.

Andy Baldacci:
Right. Was it that the … Did you change the way you were approaching the problem or was it just that the MVP was too minimum, when you first put it out there?

Kyle Racki:
My vision for Proposify was always, "Let's take the best parts of InDesign." I don't know if listeners have used Adobe InDesign. I'm sure many of them have. It's a great layout program. I'm a designer by trade, so I've used it a lot in the past, when we ran an agency. I used it to make really nice looking proposals that didn't look like they were done in Word. A lot of agencies do that.

All the limitations of using InDesign, especially when you're dealing with Account Managers and people that aren't really Designers. You've got to let them go in and write bits of proposals and share it. It was always a nightmare.

My idea was always, "Let's just make this really nice kind of design editor, to put it all in the browser and have all the great other features of proposal software. Go from there." It was a bit of an ambitious vision, I guess. I wasn't the kind of thing, like building a text editor. Trying to build a better version of Google Docs is not something easily done with one developer.

Andy Baldacci:
Right. What did that first version look like?

Kyle Racki:
Oh, I think I've got old videos on YouTube or Vimeo or something, of me demoing the product. You can see, it's very ugly. It's very clunky and it just didn't work that well. There was also some features missing. I know, common startup advice is, "Features aren't the most important thing. You can't just keep adding features." Sometimes it is. This is where customer development is so important. I think people should never … You can't do too much customer development.

Picking up the phone, calling customers, going through emails, doing all the support as the Founder, so important within that first couple of years because you really learn what people want and you internalize it. There were certain features that people needed. Even if they weren't asking for a particular feature, we just learned through the feedback of "Okay, if they're getting stuck here, how can we make this easier for them?"

I'll give you an example. Using our software, basically the idea was, "Oh, you can recreate your nice looking proposal in our system and then send it out, and save time writing it the next time." What we found is, and this isn't surprising, people are really lazy. They don't … They're like "Oh, I have to set up my proposal and put it on my text and redesign it all from the ground up."

This was a common roadblock for people. We could get people to sign up really easily. We could drive traffic to our landing page really easily, but it's that whole, getting them to really use it and getting them to covert, to pay at the end of the trial. That was what we were stuck on. Eventually, we just created pre-made … Sorry, phone going off there.

Andy Baldacci:
That's all right.

Kyle Racki:
Eventually, we just said ""Okay, we're going to build this library of amazing templates that just look killer. They're all pre-written, the contracts, the scope of services, the price. It's all there. They can edit it." Essentially, it's like a ready to go template library for all these different jobs that mostly, agencies do. Now we have more industries now, but at the time it was web design, SEO. All services that a small digital agency would offer.

I think it was the templates library and being able to just click on a template and get going and starting it. I think it was that month or the month after, that we said, "I think we hit product market fit."

Andy Baldacci:
Because even though this Proposify is making the process of writing proposals easier, people still had their process before. It might have sucked. It might have been a huge pain in the ass, but it was their pain in the ass. They were used to it. Getting them to switch to something different. Even though you're like, "This is better and they can see that." It's just that first little hurdle of getting them started, is going to make all the difference. If you can clear that hurdle. If you can get them to make that first proposal, it seems like, then the light bulb might go off. Is that what you found?

Kyle Racki:
Absolutely. 100%. I think if the problem is painful enough for people, a lot of them will switch. You'll never get everybody to switch. When you show them certain things like … It's different for everybody. For some of them it's like "Oh, you know, I wish InDesign integrated with my CRM and invoicing software." You can go "Oh, cool. We have those features." For other people, it's the getting sign off where they go, "It's such a pain, just being able to get my client to agree to it. Fax over their signature or email it over." That kind of thing.

It's all these different things. For some people, it's just sharing it all internally or being able to have a content library, to just be able to reuse sections and fees and stuff, easily. It's different for everybody. Once you hit on that pain point, people are willing to put in the time to switch over.

Andy Baldacci:
What was it that made you say, "Oh, I think we hit product market fit?" Was it a gut thing or were you running some of the surveys to measure it? How did you know or at least strongly think you would hit product market fit?

Kyle Racki:
First of all, it was just a big boost in MRR. I'll give you the exact number as I look through my reporting software here. We had done, like I mentioned, it was under $1000 MRR for quite a long time. Then I think it was September. I'm just taking a quick look here. It was September, where we jumped from, say 900 MRR to 1500, which doesn't seem like a lot, but it's a pretty big boost.

We thought "Okay, well that was a good month." Then the month after. By the end of November, we were at almost 2500. The month after that, we were at 4000. We started to climb pretty quickly from there. I would say, the revenue boost and the MRR jump was our first indication that people were actually converting and staying on the software.

Also, feedback was getting better. Instead of people tweeting, "You know, Proposify lost all my content. The pasting is a nightmare." All those kind of things. We started getting tweets that were like, "Proposify saved my life. I just won a contract through Proposify."

Feedback was getting better and I was really … I'm sure all your listeners are familiar with the product market fit survey, where you say "How disappointed would you be or how would you feel, if you could no longer use us?" I was really afraid of actually putting that survey out there because I was afraid it would invalidate it.

I wanted to wait and just see, is this a real trend or is it just an anomaly? By about December, once we had quadrupled our revenue within a couple of months, I ran the survey, terrified, to see what it was going to say. It was something like, 60% of the respondents said they would be very disappointed if they could no longer use our product. I think the baseline is 40, for getting product market fit.

Andy Baldacci:
Just for listeners who aren't familiar with this, I believe it's Hiten Shah who talked about this a lot. If not, but either way I'll …

Kyle Racki:
Sean Ellis.

Andy Baldacci:
… okay, you're right. Exactly. It's Sean Ellis from Qualaroo GrowthHackers, all of that. Yeah, I'll link all of that in the show notes. Kyle, you can keep going. Sorry about that.

Kyle Racki:
No, it's good. Basically it says, "If you can get at least 40% of the survey respondents to say that they would be very disappointed, if they could no longer use your software, then it gives you some measure of hitting product market fit." If most people say "Yeah, I don't really use it or I wouldn't be that disappointed," then you've got more work to do. It was 60% saying, they'd be very disappointed.

I had a customer threaten to fly to Halifax and beat all of us up, if we shut down the software. People are actually terrified that we were shutting it down, which was really good.

Andy Baldacci:
Yeah, because that's the thing is, when you send that kind of question, people are like "Wait. Why are they asking me this?" That's almost, you want them to … The fact that they are that concerned, shows that you're onto something.

Kyle Racki:
Exactly. Exactly. That was a pretty good month. We felt very validated by the revenue increase and by the product market fit survey, that we were there. Now our next challenge was, "How can we scale this?"

Andy Baldacci:
Right. How did you scale it, because that's the thing is, from reading a few of the different interviews and things that you've done, you were already doing a lot of marketing stuff. You already had a marketing system in place. Was it just, once you hit this, is just keep grinding away at that? Now that you have product market fit, it's just going to accelerate? Did anything change, to really ramp up that growth?

Kyle Racki:
Yeah, it's a good question. I think, having a product that people love is the first step, obviously. You can't scale it, if you're not there. Once you have a product that most people like, I think the challenge ahead of you is two-fold. One, you need to make the product even better, because now at this point, you're competing with other products within your space. Not that you have to match them, feature for feature, but you always need to make the product that much more smooth, that much more stable, secure.

From a technical standpoint, scaling becomes a bigger issue for your CTO, for your engineers. What was once, "Oh, let's shut down the software in the middle of the day and run an update on a Wednesday. Once you've got 1000 people or more, using it, you just can't do that. You've got to start building in all these processes. Sometimes moving the entire system over to different architecture.

There's that challenge of scaling, which is more from the technical standpoint. There's the product, general product management of, "What's on our roadmap? What features are going to drive growth, integrations, partnerships? How can we get on to other people's marketplaces," which is a little bit marketing and a little bit product.

Then strictly from a marketing standpoint, even if you're doing some level of marketing while you're trying to reach product market fit. Once you're there, you've got to really start optimizing everything you're doing. That's when you start bringing in experts. In the early days, it was me doing most of the marketing because I was writing a blog. I would run a few ad campaigns, look at our SEO.

Once we're trying to scale, it's like "Okay, I've reached my limited and what I'm good at. Now I need to bring on experts. People who are better writers, better at analytics, better at SEO, and scale from that standpoint."

Andy Baldacci:
I'm talking about this because in another article, you said that you're big on having one core metric that you really focus on. During that period of time, I believe it was your focusing really on conversion to paid. Getting free trial users to pay at the end of the trial. Is that right?

Kyle Racki:
Exactly, yeah. For us, like I mentioned before, we could drive traffic to the website. We could convert it to trials pretty easily. Not every startup or SaaS company is going to have that same luxury. For some of them, they were trying to find their market or they're trying to convince people to even try it. That wasn't really hard for us.

We knew that, in order to get to the next level, I wasn't going to start worrying about AB testing headlines on the marketing site, to get more signups. The big hole in our metrics was, we can't get enough people to just sign up at the end of their trial. That's what we worked obsessively on. Now that we're … Once we got to that point where there was some momentum and we could predict every month, how many new customers we were going to get, then you've got to switch focus on "Okay, what else is the big hole we've got to work on?"

For a long time, it was churn. Our churn rate was way too high. We worked to get that down. Then we just keep moving around to different stages of the funnel.

Andy Baldacci:
I'm curious. I'm sure listeners are "Well, wait a second." The fact that it wasn't hard for you to get sign ups, I think is going to be surprising a lot of people and I want to ask. Is that because you were so focused on a specific market or were there other reasons?

Kyle Racki:
I think a lot of it was, we found a very good problem to solve, that a lot of people knew they had. We also really understood our market. Especially in the early days, we were selling mainly to web design and marketing agencies and small agencies. We knew that intimately because that was us. We were scratching our own itch. When we spoke to the pain, people I think, could tell that we really understood them.

I remember a guy named Nicholas Kusmich, if I'm not butchering his name. He's a big Facebook marketing guru. He's one of the best in the world at it. He said this at a conference. It's so true to me was that, "Great marketing isn't when you understand your audience. It's when your audience feels understood by you." I think that is one of the things that we did well.

Andy Baldacci:
Once you do that. Once the audience knows that you understand them, and that there's really that you're all on the same page. Once you have that, how are you reaching that audience? You're not just writing a blog post and saying "Oh, I help people find it." I'm sure it's a little more active than that. How were you actively getting in front of that audience?

Kyle Racki:
This is really interesting because I think, depending on what kind of product you're building. Sometimes you're building into an established market. If you're building a new CRM or you're building a new customer support help desk, you don't need to convince anybody that they have this problem. You need to convince them that, either you're building something more specific to their unique needs or you're just doing it better or more simpler or whatever it is, than the other guys.

For us, where we had a, I wouldn't say proposal software was an established market. We had a couple of small competitors at the time. The majority of people we were competing with, or we were competing with Microsoft Word and Adobe InDesign. The incumbents were just, the general purpose document software. It was a little bit of work, to convince people that they actually need to sign up and put in their credit card and pay another monthly or annual fee for software, where a lot of people try to minimize their costs on software.

It was a bit of work, to say "You should use actual software to solve this problem." In terms of the general problem people had, of "Proposals take a lot of time. I need to close more deals, to keep my agency afloat. I need a template for a certain type of proposal. How do I write a cover letter? How do I price my services well?" All of those problems, everybody knew they had. Everybody was searching for answers.

If I could get in front of them and say "Hey, I can help you answer these questions about proposals or I can give you a free template," then I can get in the door and say "Oh, you should also check out these cool features in our software. Maybe give our software a trial." That was the strategy for getting in front of people.

Andy Baldacci:
Okay. You made sure … You scratched their itch, but they're already searching for some of these things. A lot of it is a bit of SEO. Some of it is going to be on the tactical level. Did you do much Facebook advertising or do you now? I'm not sure.

Kyle Racki:
We do. We do Facebook advertising now. It's mainly retargeting people who've already visited the website, and reaching back out to them. We plan to do more because it's a very effective channel for us. In the early days, we did nothing. We did a little AdWords, but even then, that wasn't a big driver of anything. It was actually, believe it or not, doing banner ads on targeted blogs, like A List Apart and places where there was a lot of design folks, people who ran small agencies. We would sponsor A List Apart and a couple of other sites, and just get in front of them that way. That would usually drive a big surge in traffic.

We didn't keep them running for very long. We just wanted to get a new big batch of sign ups to test out the product and see how it was converting. It was a lot of organic. Even still, organic searches are by far, our number one source of customers.

Andy Baldacci:
Interesting. When did the podcast come about?

Kyle Racki:
That would have been in about February, 2015. It came about because we knew content. I'm a big believer in content marketing. Like I said, people have these questions about "How do I run my small agency more effectively? How do I close deals, et cetera?" They've got all these questions. If you can answer those questions and become their friend. Again, they feel understood by you, then it becomes so much easier to sell software to them.

We knew we needed content. I had been blogging for a couple of years. It was okay. It was a bit of a source of traffic and whatnot. We knew that, if we wanted to produce stuff again, focused on agencies that was really effective, there's only so much I can write about agencies now, that I haven't been in the business for two or three years. Actually, more than that now.

We figured, we need people who are in the trenches, running agencies everyday, to actually give us better advice. Better stories. Something that happened last week to them, that they can talk about. At first, we started doing video. We started this video series that was loosely based off of Seinfeld's comedians in cars, getting coffee. We just figured it would be more appropriate to say, agencies drinking beer.

Andy Baldacci:
Right.

Kyle Racki:
Right? We started going to some local friends we knew, who ran agencies. Getting a camera and interviewing them. People tended to like it. We got a lot of good feedback on it. We knew long-term scalable, "Can we do a video every week? Probably not. We could do an interview over Skype." That's where the podcast idea came from.


Andy Baldacci:
It's funny because honestly, I've ran across your podcast, ways back, for one of my clients, Hubstaff. We have a lot of agency customers as well, but none of us really had much agency experience. My thing was like, "Alright. I saw what you guys were doing. This makes a ton of sense because especially for us, because we are not the experts. Let me just interview the experts, so we can still produce valuable content for our audience." Instead of just putting out the generic SEO crap that no one really wants to read, this is actually interesting, valuable advice that we were able to tap into, that we otherwise couldn't have got.


The podcast, for that reason has been invaluable and we were really glad we did it. Have you been able to … Are you able to measure the impact of the podcast?


Kyle Racki:
This is a big challenge, a big struggle that I've been going through because our numbers are decent, but they're not great. There's a lot of much more successful, much more popular podcasts. Obviously, with a podcast, it's very difficult to measure conversion. Is it your existing customer's listing? Is it new people finding it and then going to your software? So hard to measure.


I would say anecdotally, we get people that email us or email me or email support and say "Hey, I was a long time listener of the podcast and decided to try out the software." We get a little bit of validation that way. Then even some existing customers that listen to it. I think that it helps us. This is where, not that I want to change subjects, but we're, I think, branding and brand positioning comes in, is we want to be known as the proposal software with a face. With a personality. We've worked really hard to have a fun, personable brand. I think the podcast lends itself to that, nicely too.


Andy Baldacci:
Right. It's something that, really, we have the same struggle, where it's like we do constantly get people coming and say "Oh, I heard your podcast. I want to try out the software." Even just other customers reaching back out and saying "Oh, I learned a ton." If current customers can learn from the podcast, they're probably going to stay customers, longer. There's a lot of soft metrics, soft things that we're able to pick up on it. Those hard numbers are difficult.


I think you hit a good point. When you are focused on really building a brand, having some more personal component like this can make a huge difference because people, they feel like they know you. They hear you talk, week in, week out. They hear how you joke. They hear, just all of these things and they really feel a much closer connection than, to some faceless corporation. I don't think anyone has that connection with Adobe or with Microsoft. With Proposify, they do.


Kyle Racki:
Exactly. This is where I think, working hard to build a great product, people love, first and foremost. Then adding on top of that, a excellent support where you're just friendly with customers and you joke with them and the founders are helping them out. Jumping on a call to help get them sorted out. That kind of stuff in the early days, and even beyond, goes so far to helping you get scale. You can run all the Facebook ads in the world and all the AdWords campaigns. That's exactly what your competition is doing.


The well-funded competition that just raised 10 million in VC funding, guarantee those founders aren't jumping on a phone with customers. Inviting them on a podcast, to chat. Helping them with the support ticket at midnight. None of them are doing that. That's what's going to get you that base of customers, that just becomes so passionate about your product, that they're just sharing it with the world. Everybody they can tell about it, they're doing that.


We're thankful to have that kind of customer base, where those who love us, are just passionate about it. I think a lot of it ties into that personal brand of, "We care."


Andy Baldacci:
No, it's funny because I was out in Nashville and I ran into Bill Faith of Inbound Marketing Agents, who you had on your podcast. I was just talking to him. He was raving about Proposify. Not even just from the podcast angle, but the software. He did say that "These guys are different." You could just tell that, the passion he had for it, was obviously influenced by the personal aspect. That combined with having a really great product, was just so powerful. You could just see the way he talked about it.

He was showing about how he has this whole studio set up, so he can do basically, a video sales letter in the proposal. All these different things. He was just so amped up about it. I was like, "Alright, I need to check out these guys a bit more."

Kyle Racki:
I'm pleased to hear that. Thankfully, Bill's not the only one. I think that this is where people need to … If you're building a SaaS company and you hit product market fit, now's not the time to step off of the personal attention strategy and just start looking at "How do we scale and throw money at this thing?"

I think you just, as much as you possibly can, try to keep everything that people … Your initial group of customers loved about you, and try to scale with that, as opposed to "Oh, now we're just looking at throwing gas on the fire," or whatever the typical VC analogy is.

Andy Baldacci:
I'm curious. To wrap things up a little bit, you were saying that you've been focusing on one thing at a time. Not jumping around, but you've been focusing on one really core metric at a time. It was conversion of paid. You've been shifting it to churn and then so on. I'm curious, after doubling in 2016, what are you going to be focusing on, in 2017?

Kyle Racki:
Great question. This is something I think, we all as business owners, start thinking about, towards the end of the year. "What are we going to do, next year?" See, the nice thing about scaling a little bit. We're at 15 people at Proposify now, counting the two Founders. 13 employees. The nice thing about having a bigger team is that, you don't have to be as selective as you are in the early days, when it's two or three of you.

You can only really be focused on one thing at a time. That's where I think, the lean analytics approach of one metric that matters, is important. For those who haven't heard of it, go read Lean Analytics by Alistair Croll and Ben Yoskovitz.

Andy Baldacci:
I'll make sure to get that link up as well.

Kyle Racki:
Yeah, that was very important for us, to read that and follow that methodology. When you've got a bigger team, the nice thing is, you can actually focus on different parts of the funnel at the same time. You can have a marketer working on driving traffic well, a product Manager looks to lower churn, and your Customer Success team hopes to improve customer happiness ratings and all that.

You can work in all of that at the same time. I think for us, we want to make the product even better. We want to make it even easier, add some of the features that a lot of people had been asking for, from the product's side. From the marketing side, we want to put a big push on making even better content. We're actually looking at, maybe even renaming and completely revamping our whole podcast and blog, to be even better.

Yeah, just basically, keep on the grind. We really want to be the leader in our category of proposal software. We're up against a well-funded competitor. We don't plan to raise money any time soon. The game is on.

Andy Baldacci:
No, and I'm excited to see what you do with all that because it is different. When you do have the team around you and you do have people you can have … Instead of having one core focus, it's individuals still have their focus. As a company, you're able to do more. I really am excited to see what you're able to do with these bigger resources that you have. In the grand scheme of things, like you said, there is some well-founded competition. It seems like you guys are scrappy enough and have a good enough product that hopefully, you'll prevail in the end.

To wrap things up Kyle, I want to ask. If listeners want to hear more from you. Hear more and learn more about Proposify, where should they go?

Kyle Racki:
Check out proposify.biz. It's not the easiest URL for some to remember. Some people can't even say it. They say Proposify. Officially, it is Proposify; P-R-O-P-O-S-I-F-Y.biz not com because we can't get the dotcom, unfortunately.

Yeah, check out the website. Sign up for a free trial and also check out our blog on the site, and podcasts which are there as well. I think we've got good content. For SaaS and straight up Founders, a lot of our content is agency service focused. We do put in deep dives into a blog post we're launching this week, is all about how we revamped our onboarding. We like to also talk about product stuff, for those who are interested in the product UX, product management side of things.

Andy Baldacci:
Yeah, and honestly, you guys have been putting out great content. I want to really encourage listeners to check that out. Hopefully that the … I was reading somewhere. I think it was a comment on one of your blog posts. You were saying that the owner of proposify.com just won't respond. It's not even that they have this crazy ask. They just won't respond. Is that right?

Kyle Racki:
Yeah, last time I tried. I haven't tried in a while, but I'd been trying for months, maybe a year ago, to say "Can we talk?" Just no response. If anybody can convince the owner of proposify.com to return my emails, there'll be a finder's fee in it for you.

Andy Baldacci:
There'll be a few beers waiting for you in Halifax.

Kyle Racki:
Exactly.

Andy Baldacci:
All right, well Kyle, I just want to say thanks again for coming on the show. I had a lot of fun chatting with you today.

Kyle Racki:
I had fun too. Thanks Andy.